Episode 1: MASTERING Your Mental Performance for Business Success

Dr. Colin Guthrie (00:00):

But that’s where the practice is, right? And that’s where I think having a point to reflect and knowing when you’re your best is starting with that. I think a lot of times we spend too much time maybe digging in on all the things that are wrong with our business or how we’re behaving. Instead of saying, let’s think about, let’s go back and think about the moments when you’ve been really good, where you’ve really had your talent shiny, you’ve done something extra special, and what is it about that situation? And then you slowly grow that out.

Chris Cook (00:31):

So welcome to the Mining your real estate business podcast, episode one. And I’m so happy to introduce my friend, the person that’s responsible for part of who I am today for sure. Dr. Colin Guthrie, who is joining us all the way from Halifax. I believe you’re in Halifax right now?

Dr. Colin Guthrie (00:53):

Yeah, just outside of Halifax. Yep.

Chris Cook (00:55):

Nice. And so Colin is the founder of MPCG, which is Mental Performance Consulting Group. And before he founded this as he was doing his doctorate, he was also working with the Canadian Sailing team as a sports psychologist. And that’s where we crossed paths. And I think what we discovered there last night was actually just how old I was when we crossed paths. I think you thought I was younger than I was, I think mentally. Maybe I was. Yeah, it’s amazing. It is.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (01:36):

I thought I was younger than I was too, Chris. It’s all

Chris Cook (01:38):

Good now we’re going on 20 years later and both of us have founded our own businesses, had children, all of that stuff. In the meantime, I think you were just starting your family when we were working together. I think Callum was pretty new.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (01:58):

Yeah. Yeah, fre Freya was quite young.

Chris Cook (02:00):

Oh, it

Dr. Colin Guthrie (02:00):

Was Freya was your first. That’s right. Yeah, Freya was, I remember Freya came into my life when I was just completing my dissertation then working with, it was so many things going on. I was doing some work with the Olympic sailing team. I was still doing some of my own sailing with Dirk Noman in the Etzel class. And I think that’s partly how we got connected. He was close friends with Lawrence Lemu, who was somebody that was a really, really fundamental part of your sailing career at the same time. And I think Larry and Dirk helped to get us connected ultimately.

Chris Cook (02:35):

And I do remember I picked you up from the airport in a rental car, a Yaris, just after a snowstorm. And I remember we were driving up to Dirk’s spot there and there was a big snowbank. I was like, don’t even worry about that. And I punched through it and you were like, oh, I think I just learned about everything I need to know about you. But yeah, I remember that was our first interaction. That is how we ended up meeting, was tapping some maple trees there and through my coach that I was working with at the time very closely. And we’d made a commitment to actually be better at what I was doing. And I think this is a really great segue to take us, Colin,

(03:17):

The importance of putting a team around you and having the right people. And what was amazing thing that I had to learn, I always sort of thought I put the right people around me and life will just get better. But it was actually really quite difficult to start letting go of things, letting other people sit in the driver’s side, letting you take the controls of some of the support performance and the mental performance side. Trusting that process, trusting Larry and some of the things that he was doing. He took away my ability to be able to pick my own equipment. My job was driving the boat and that was it. It was very difficult process to let go. And we actually touched on it last night, and this is really why I wanted to bring you in here for the first episode because I think in business this is a really important thing that you have to understand is that you can’t do everything and expect to scale and grow.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (04:34):

Yeah. And I would say I would add a little context around that is you won’t be able to consistently be high performance. You might hit it out of the park now and then and occasionally be good, but then you’re occasionally going to be awful, right as well. So that’s part of the context. I remember getting the call from the email from Larry saying, Chris is having an incredible career and we think he’s going to make it to the games one day and he’s going to win a medal. But then we go to the next event and we’re wondering, where is that guy? He doesn’t seem to show up today. He’s now at the back of the fleet. And so there was a lot of confusion because it wasn’t really, from his perspective, it wasn’t a technical issue. It wasn’t that you’re sailing the boat differently necessarily with different sails or different equipment, but it was how do we help Chris be more consistent so that he can stay at the top and be able to do that and be able to repeat that multiple times over and worry less about the consistency and the volatility that came with all the passion that you brought to sailing and I assume bring to your work that you do today too.

(05:39):

So how do you bring some awareness around that and then take some of that off your plate, take some of the help you debunk some of the mystery around that and help you just get on with the things that you do so well at. Because you had a lot of really good sailors in Raleigh. You had PhDs around you, you had Olympians around you, but ultimately you were the one that really had the talent to be able to do the job. Larry was not. He was a talented sailor. I was a talent sailor, but nothing compared to what you had.

Chris Cook (06:12):

I appreciate that. It is something that I will say interestingly now two decades later after we started our work together, it is still something that I have to be conscious of that it’s easy to slip back into old habits. It’s easy to take your eye off of building that consistency. And certainly even with switching into real estate, I’ve had consistency issues that have crept up. And you and I have talked about that and I’ve still reached out to you on some different things and relied on you over ever since I get a little free direction where I can from you. It’s a forever credit, but I’d love to be able to pull some parallels. You have a lot of experience now having left the specifically a sports psychology role and now we’re working with higher end CEOs that have a lot of responsibility and a team underneath them that they’re responsible for directing. So what sort of similarities do you see from the work that we did together and building that sort of trust in your team? What are you seeing as parallels for a bigger organization and the CEOs that are running those?

Dr. Colin Guthrie (07:40):

So I think it’s really a lot connected to what you talked about earlier, being able to let go and being able to get some people around you that will take care of some of the things that you think are quite important but actually are pretty simple. The basics, what mask am I using? Where is my lt? What are some of the cutouts? What are some of the technical things I need to be thinking about? And knowing that someone is actually really good at that so that you can start to get up to a higher level and start to be able to be more strategic on the race course. Being able to think a little further down the line, being able to take care of yourself, make sure that you’re resting well, make sure that your nutrition is good because if you get so hyper-focused on all the technical sides of what’s going on in your sport or your business, it’s really easy to lose track of what’s going on around you.

(08:33):

So in sailing we would say that’d be getting your head stuck in the boat. And so you’re so focused on making the boat go fast or what’s going on around you that you’re have your head on the swivel you need to have in order to see what’s going on around you. So I think that’s a big challenge for athletes that go from being say, top 16 or top 20 in the world to being somebody who’s regularly in the top 10 or even aiming for a podium is they’re able to let go and be more strategic and tap into self-awareness and understand the mental performance side is really the key because you can’t do it all. And the higher you get up the organization, the good news is you have a much higher view of what’s going on. You have the ability to look long range, you have access to more information, and your job is to really read the race course and see what’s going on, and then help to manage the risk. It’s hard for CEOs who were promoted based on their ability to get stuff done, solve problems and make other people look good to doing less of that now.

Chris Cook (09:41):

And I think that’s certainly something because I do some real estate coaching now myself, and I do see a lot of that where people are, they’re so used to getting involved that when everybody gets a real estate license, the first thing they do is they go and they get a client. They help that client buy a house or sell a house. And then as they do that more and more they start building their company. They’re used to doing everything. And I think one of the biggest difficulties that I see with individuals that have grown is how do you let go of things that somebody else could be doing better and give them the trust to be able to do that.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (10:33):

And I think you got to understand why it’s important not to do that, first of all. First of all, that’s where the adrenaline is and that’s where the fun is. And that’s where the excitement is, right? That’s where you hit the rush and put in the puck in the net and you’re like, oh, this is going to be great. So you have to be able to wean yourself off of that adrenaline and then see what the bigger picture might look like. And then you have to understand, okay, so if I do get my head up and I’m start thinking about six months from now what the market’s going to be looking like and I let someone else do that work, can I get the same sense of satisfaction as a leader of somebody who’s doing the deal as I can, as being the person that’s actually feeling the chase, feeling the hunt, feeling the juice of doing the deal. So you got to wound yourself off that, but you have to have a really good rationale in your head as to why you’re not going to do that. Tough.

Chris Cook (11:22):

Yeah, it is really hard to, like you say, to let go of putting the buck in the net as you say, it’s hard to let go

Dr. Colin Guthrie (11:30):

Smile. I saw you smiling to yourself as I described. That sounds like that happens.

Chris Cook (11:36):

Oh yeah. Because I’ve switched from being an athlete to being a coach. I coach sailing, and it was difficult to not be jumping in the boat to not want to do that. And then even being a team leader and letting somebody achieve to be able to do those things for you. But I will say there’s one of the greatest joys that I’ve had in my professional career as a real estate agent, watching one of my agents perform at a really high level to save a deal that really some dynamic thought on how they went about saving the deal and knowing that I built all of the things that made this person be able to perform at that level. And that for me, it’s a little bit like being a dad and you see your kid, you see one of your children perform at a high level and it’s very rewarding. It makes all of those early mornings and sleepless nights and it makes all of that stuff worth it. And that’s, I guess one of the things that I would love to be able to also talk to you a little bit about and experience that I had with you when you were coaching. You were brought into sale Canada

(13:10):

To help with a long-term strategic plan. And we sat in a boardroom and fought and

Dr. Colin Guthrie (13:20):

There was a lot of competing ideas about which way to take the organization. A lot of really learned

Chris Cook (13:25):

People, but it was one of the really interesting things that I took away from that was that you really have to understand where you’re going. If you’re going to draw a map to go somewhere, you have to start with where the finish line is, what is it that you’re trying to create? And I think for an athlete it’s pretty easy. I want to go to the Olympics, I want to win a medal. Okay, that’s easy. But in business, I think that that finish line, it can be a little bit difficult to tack down where is the finish line, what does that look like? Is it a moving target? So what kind of experiences have you had with that? And I think specifically how can we draw that to somebody that’s just getting going in their real estate career? What does a finish line do you think look like for a smaller organization?

Dr. Colin Guthrie (14:22):

Yeah, okay. Well, a couple of things come to mind for me. The first one, the first thing is the first time that I actually stepped out of the coach boat into the boardroom. So I get a call to go and work with an executive vice president, general counsel of a Fortune one 50 company based in oil field services. This gentle was really intrigued about the parallels between business and sport. And you’d gotten to know me through some sports ecology work I was doing with a couple of his kids that were great sailors invited me into his office one day, 26th floor, big office building downtown Houston. And I started describing him what working towards the goals and the podium, those sorts of things. And he looked at me, he said, Colin, today’s Monday I may have three Olympic games coming up this week and I don’t even know it.

(15:15):

So there’s so many unexpected things that can happen. He could have a kidnapping in some country because they operated in 80 different countries around the world. He could have hostile takeovers. I mean, you just don’t know where those things are coming from. And I think that’s one of the biggest things in sport. You have your yearly plan, you have every four years when the Olympics are, you can map it out six months in advance. So it’s really difficult in business. So that was one of the biggest wake up calls for me is you have to be a lot more flexible. You have to be a lot more adaptable and constantly thinking about what is success and being able to be ready for whatever it is on game day. But every business has a season similar to a sailing or a sports season, but it tends to be much more predict, unpredictable, which makes it, I think even more difficult at times because the uncertainty tends to be very high.

Chris Cook (16:08):

One of the broker managers here at Max that I think very highly of, she one time said, the only real estate emergency is the one you’ve created. And that really resonated with me because I think anything you can really map out what your process is and be able to delegate a lot of that stuff so that when the emergency does arise, it’s not a panic, it’s a fire you can put out really quite easily because you have the bandwidth for it. I always like to have, I’ve become thanks to you, very documented in my process.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (16:59):

Good.

Chris Cook (17:01):

If you remember one of the things we had to describe what sort of headspace I was in when I was performing at my best, I remember, and I always use the analogy of a surgeon, and when a surgeon operates, they know where all the vital organs are. They know where to operate, they know how to deal with if they nick something, how to deal with that. They have protocol in place to be able to handle situations when they go wrong. And I always felt like when I was at my best, I was really in charge of what was happening. There were no surprises. And when something did go not quite right, it was easy to adapt to that. How many of the bigger companies that you work with are very well procedured out.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (18:00):

So I think a couple of things come to mind is I think for sure preparing for those moments becomes really critical. And I worked with a surgeon once for a while in the meta performance area, and he said the first thing they teach you when you get on the operating table is the more the blood flows, the calmer you have to get. And you have to learn that you can’t just wait for the moment. So you rehearse it and you get ready for those things. And kind of like I just go back to a story about rehearsing those moments when there’s not emergencies being in cascade with you at the 2007 Worlds, right, the ASAP Worlds, I can’t remember which race it was Chris Race, four or five, and it had to do with the pumping flag. Do you remember?

Chris Cook (18:45):

That’s right. Yeah. I got flagged when the pumping flag was up. I got a penalty that I shouldn’t have gotten.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (18:51):

Right.

Chris Cook (18:52):

I remember.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (18:53):

And what place were you at at that point?

Chris Cook (18:55):

I think I was second or third in that race and dropped back pretty substantially. Yeah, but you didn’t drop back all the way, you dropped back

Dr. Colin Guthrie (19:03):

Four boats.

Chris Cook (19:04):

You got maybe a better memory of it than I do. Yeah,

Dr. Colin Guthrie (19:07):

Because you had rehearsed it right, and you didn’t jump off your boat and approach the umpire. He made a mistake. There was nothing going to happen in that moment. So you had two choices either immediately do the drill, immediately do the penalty, turn and stay with the pack or fall back into the chasing pack of Hals that were trying to hunt you down. You stayed in touch with that top group, and I still think you finished in the top three in that race, but you immediately responded in the moment, no emergency due to your two penalty turns and you stayed connected with the group. Whereas I think a less mature Chris Cook might’ve handled that a bit differently, but you were in the moment, you were able to execute under pressure. And that for me is a story I tell lots of people.

Chris Cook (19:51):

I remember actually, I didn’t end up getting any redress for that because I recovered as well as I did, and then they didn’t give me anything for my trouble, which was a little bit. I think that that’s life though. Sometimes you don’t get vindicated. And I do work in an industry, you and I had chatted about this last night. We work in an industry where we get paid to close. It’s

Dr. Colin Guthrie (20:15):

True.

Chris Cook (20:16):

We don’t get paid for effort.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (20:18):

No,

Chris Cook (20:20):

We have to perform. And if you don’t, then well, the wolves are at the door pretty quick. It is very rewarding when it’s rewarding and it can be punishing. And this is why I really think that the mental performance training that we did has prepared for the highs and the lows that come along with a sales industry. And I actually end up probably thriving on it. I don’t think I’d have it any other way, but it is, I guess one of the things on that note that I would probably want to ask you is how important do you think coaching in general is even for somebody that’s all the way at the top of their game?

Dr. Colin Guthrie (21:17):

I think if you’re at the top of your game, you got to ask yourself, how do I get better? So the learning curve really flattens out. When you’re at the top of your game, you’re more in a situation of defending a medal or defending a world championship or maybe defending a market position. So if you’re really, and so that changes things for a lot of athletes and leaders. They’re really good when they’re chasing and when they’re not the favorite, but all of a sudden you’re the favorite, you’re the one that’s defending, you’re the one that’s got the bullseye on your back. So then it becomes more around composure. And it does come a lot more around managing your stress and your nerves in the moment. And that’s where I think executive coaching in business is such an important aspect of it. So an executive coach isn’t someone who knows your business super well.

(22:04):

There are other, you should have people around you on your team that know the real estate business really well. But to have an executive coach, you’ll understand the kind of how the emotional side of sport works and knows you as a person, understands, helps you see your tendency, heightens your self-awareness so that you can see when you might be part of the problem. And so the sooner you understand that you may be part of the problem, the sooner you can recover or you can save the deal or wherever it might be. So with executive coaching, we have a little bit of a stand back on it where we would say we’re in it, but we’re not of it. So we can provide a mirror for you and help you look in it and quickly make the adjustments you need to make.

Chris Cook (22:49):

Yeah, I love that because it is hyper accountability for who you are and what you bring to the table. Super important. Not to share too many stories at a school, but I do know one of the early lessons that I learned from you was it was actually just accountability for how you show up. And when you show up five minutes late, if there’s four or five people waiting for you, that’s a multiple. It was one of the first lessons that I learned about accountability was that there’s other people being affected by what you’re doing and how you show up is a reflection of who you are. And I do certainly, as I’ve mentioned it a few times, I do really credit you for getting me going that direction where there’s a lot of self-reflection. Things happen sometimes to you and how you react to that is important, but sometimes you’re the reason, sometimes it’s actually your fault and it doesn’t really, it’s easy to deflect that. It’s very, really easy to blame somebody else. But it is something that probably causes me more stress than not is if I don’t get a deal, if I don’t sign that listing and I thought for sure I was going to get it.

(24:27):

What it allows you to do is to be able to go back and ask yourself, why didn’t I get it? What could I have done differently? How can I be better? And that’s really kind of got me to a position, and this is what I really try to promote to the people that I’m working with now, is if you have a lot of self-reflection, if you’re critical about yourself and you’re not going to blame other people, you can get to where you’re going a lot faster. It allowed me to really, we’re talking sport, but it injected steroids into my business. It’s almost like a cheat code where I’m not going to that seller’s an idiot. I can’t believe they didn’t hire me. Instead, it’s what could I have said differently? How could I have presented my position better to have won that? And now even with marketing, I look at listings that come out and I didn’t get an opportunity to even win that business. So I’ve started actually being really hard on myself about why didn’t I get the opportunity to even sit in front of those people? That’s a fault of my

Dr. Colin Guthrie (25:47):

Own. So I think one of the key things you’re talking about here as it relates to business as well is leadership. So the way that the leader behaves in those moments with a major setback is really, really important because when you’re just, you Chris in the vote park and your behavior isn’t good response to a particular situation or a setback, then it only impacts you. But if you’re sailing for your country, if you’re sailing with and you’ve got lots of coaches and you’ve got a team around you, then you also have to be accountable for your emotions and how you behave in those moments.

(26:25):

If you become very emotional after a setback, where’s your team? Where are you going to find your team? They’re going to be running for cover, right? They’re going to be under the table. They’re really like, oh man, Colin’s really pissed. Now we’re going to have to let him cool off for a couple of weeks and then maybe we’ll be able to get back to the table as to being more open to it saying, wow, it didn’t go well. And for sure you’re emotional about what’s happening, but you’re not doing it to the point where people are now walking on eggshells or afraid to point things out to you. I think you have to quickly go from, okay, so we’re going to mourn that, or we all hate losing, but there’s going to be a point in time, there’s a 24 hour rule around, all right, now it’s time to start dissecting, but then you can’t take too much ownership of it either. So I also work a lot of leaders and athletes that own too much of it, and what happens then is they dwell too much on things and they beat themselves up too much. So there’s a perfect window in there somewhere where you can go and have your moment, but then you have to be really accountable for the emotions that get portrayed coming out of it. And it’s one of the things that differentiates great leaders, and I think

Chris Cook (27:34):

Athletes too. I think you’re absolutely right. What comes to mind while you were talking there was I think our friend and my coach Larry said, we want to take the bite out of the dog, not the bark.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (27:51):

That’s right.

Chris Cook (27:53):

Which was fitting. He always had that dog. You still want to have that emotion obviously, but you want to be in control of it and you want to be able to direct it in a good way. Yeah, really

Dr. Colin Guthrie (28:06):

Absolutely. Awesome. It takes a lot of work, but that’s where the practice is, right? And that’s where I think having a point to reflect and knowing when you’re at your best is starting with that. I think a lot of times we spend too much time maybe digging in on all the things that are wrong with our business or how we’re behaving. Instead of saying, let’s think, let’s go back and think about the moments when you’ve been really good where you’ve really had your tail shiny, you’ve done something extra special, and what is it about that situation? And then you’re slowly grow that out. So Chris, you may be working with an athlete that you know is really good in a certain set of conditions. So one time out of 10 at the Olympics, they’re going to win a race or two. But what you want to do is you want to make them good over six or seven, right out of 10 conditions. So I’d like to start off with, that’s why I would often ask you that question, Chris, what’s it like when you were at your best? Let’s go back to that moment. What was happening? Who was around you? What were you thinking about? How much pressure were you putting on yourself? What allowed you to be really good and at your best in that day? So coming at it from that perspective tends to be something that also gives you a lot of, let’s say, agency around your performance and allows you to dissect it and get better

Chris Cook (29:17):

Quicker. Yeah. Awesome. Just to wrap up, because we want to keep these episodes really concise. We want people to listen all the way to the end, and I know that you and I could mean we could talk like this for hours and days. What’s the biggest takeaway that you think ties all high performance together? What’s the one thing that is the common denominator for sport and business and life? What’s that one attribute that somebody can really develop and maybe it’s not a natural, some people are naturally calm, some other people are more naturally emotional, but that learned behavior that most everybody has to develop to be able to reach a high level.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (30:21):

So that’s a question that I would say at the end of the day, you need to have an unshakable belief, an unshakable, you have to believe in yourself more than anybody else does. And not all athletes or leaders understand the concept of self-belief and how important it is. I think from there you have to understand that getting good under pressure, and if you want to be consistently good under pressure, it takes a ton of practice. You have to become a student of the game around how do these situations impact me? How does it impact my decision-making, my leadership, my attentional processing, and then how do I practice and get better at it? So I think there’s determination is huge. I think an unshakable self-belief is really important. And then just that perseverance that comes along with it, having a good team around you that’ll help to pick you up in the moments, the inevitable moments where you’re going to be facing tests that you never thought you would have to write or that you maybe thought you should never have to write. Navigating through those things is critical. And then being able to also understand how to take care of yourself and matter, mature your own resiliency over the long term, because it’s one thing to go to a couple of Olympic games by the time you’re in your mid thirties, but if you’re a business leader who wants to have an extended career, you have to learn those elements as well. So there’s a lot to take care of.

Chris Cook (31:46):

Interesting. Yeah, I’m surprised actually. It’s a good after all these years, you can still surprise me with that answer because yeah, I think a lot of people believe that performing under pressure is some people have it and some people don’t. And I don’t actually agree with that because I think that I’ve seen people grow and adapt and become good under pressure. I don’t think anybody has that innate skill. It has to be developed and you have to put yourself in those pressure situations. You have to be willing to put yourself in the pressure situation and not back away.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (32:33):

And you need to be able to do the work to get yourself in those high pressure situations in the first place. So you need a bait of, you just ask Royal Rory McElroy, I love it at the Honors, right at the masters this weekend. And so you look at the number of setbacks he had on the final day and his ability to get composed, recenter, and keep going. I mean, that’s an incredible feat. But that took time. It’s the 2014, it took 10 years, 10, 14, 20 14 since he won his last major.

Chris Cook (33:03):

Yeah, it took 10 years for him. That’s a lot of monkeys on your back. That’s a lot of practice. That’s a lot of failure.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (33:12):

So I always look to the interviews that come out after the masters, Chris, because if you pay attention and you get some good journalists that ask good questions, you get some amazing nuggets out of what those journeys are like.

Chris Cook (33:25):

Yeah, fantastic. I can’t think of a better sort of takeaway then. If you want to be great, then you’ve got to put yourself in a position to be great. You’ve got to be willing to take a couple of losses. I think the expression that I love from Moneyball where Brad Pitt says, I hate losing.

(33:54):

Hate losing more than I like winning. And there’s a difference. And my wife always says, she goes, your downs are way deeper than your ups. You do know that, right? I was like, yeah, that’s the fuel. That’s what keeps me going. Actually, the down keeps me coming back. I know that there’s an up, but really great takeaway. I love it. I love it.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (34:22):

Yeah, it’s been a great, I can’t believe that hour just flew by Chris. Incredible.

Chris Cook (34:26):

Yeah. Half an hour. I think we’re on half hour here. Yeah. That’s really wonderful talking to you and actually talking a little bit business from your side as well and getting your perspective on that. I always feel like when we do talk, it’s more one sided. You’re always kind of helping direct me, and this is really fascinating to hear your perspective on this as well. One of the things that you’re seeing in your side of working with CEOs, I really hope that our growing listeners here can take what I get from you. If they can get a couple nuggets from you, that’d be amazing.

Dr. Colin Guthrie (35:13):

Yeah, it’s an honor and a privilege to be invited into these worlds of high performance. We’re just visitors at the end of the day, but it is always an honor to spend some time with people that are so committed and talented in what they do. It gets me out of bed ready to go every single day, so I’m pretty grateful to have this opportunity to reflect with you. Chris, thanks for having me today.

Chris Cook (35:43):

Gratitude’s important, that’s for sure. I’ve learned that the hard way. So for everybody that’s been listening here all the way to the end, thank you so much. Thank you, Colin, for joining us. Like share and comment on our wonderful post here as we start to move forward with this podcast and bringing more guests on, Colin, that can give us some perspective on a business that I think a lot of the times people think is very unique, and the reality is it’s got so many similarities and ties to everything else. It’s not special or unique. Our challenges are similar or if the same as other businesses, we just have to get out of our own way some of the time and engage the right people to help us get to where we’re going. Thanks again, Colin. Okay, Chris. Good luck with everything. Thank you.